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Post has been edited.

Been away from LJ for a while, but I'm easing back in and reading lots of fun entries. Read this beauty about some Crisis Core spoilers and it reveals how Crisis Core is messing with 7's original canon.



I've been staying away from most spoilers about the game. I have a shiny new Japanese copy of the game sitting on my shelf, but don't know if I want to play just yet. I didn't relish the idea of playing the game, working out the Japanese menus, and then pausing the game after amvs to look at the gamescript translation of what I just watched. Mostly I wanted to hear more Morikawa as Seph But I did read about how the game is messing with canon.

*Sigh* Square, what are you thinking?

While heavily disappointed in learning about the fuck-upery that's happening, I'm still interested in the game and wanna play the US version. I agree with a lot of the general consensus and comments people left, except two things.

1) What's really the big deal everyone has with Gackt being in the game? Is it because he's a singer and not a voice actor (I don't know if the other people do other stuff besides va)? He's "popular"?

I don't begrudge the guy doing something else in life besides just being a singer. Like American Hollywood and Sports Stars act, then want to sing, or direct, or quit basketball and play golf.

At the very least, this is not his first work on a video game. He was, if I'm remembering right, the voice and motion actor of the main character in PS2 game Bujingai. So he didn't *just* start in games and it happens to be a part of the compilation.

This is starting to follow a trend, I think. I've read vague stuff about unfavorable reactions the singers who took roles in Kingdom Hearts got. I'm beyond the teenie bopper years to have known the names of Mandy Moore and Jesse McCartney then, but I knew Lance Bass, and yeah, snickered and made fun of the Backstreet Boy, but whatever - got over it. I liked Mandy's Aerith though, and don't know why it changed I miss David Boreanaz too. When I first heard Mena Suvari as Aerith, I desperately wanted Mandy back. Mena finally got better and redeemed herself, but those first scenes of Hollow Bastian (before you see Cloud) I didn't like her voice at all and dreaded the English AC. Jesse did fine as Roxas. And Lance? I really don't remember him speaking clearly. Was there pre-battle dialog? can't recall. I remember the not-trying-to-die-and-failing part of the fight the most. And when Sephiroth summoned his - gah, whatever it was - meteors or black rain, I couldn't hear Lance's line over the music, sound effects, and me trying not to die. Was there after battle speech between him and Sora? Cuz I never got there.
but i did LOL when i finally heard the news that lance came out of the closet...and he voiced Seph, so I guess that's maybe why Lance didn't get to continue his role? oh well, love George Newbern so much more anyway, yes, you're a gooood sephiroth *purrr*

Is his popularity a factor? Yeah, I guess, cuz it got him in the game in the first place, but that's everywhere in lots of things in life. Some of the other actors from japanese Advent Children are well known voice talents themselves and popular. Disney and Dreamworks do it - they hire really famous actors to be voice actors when they could find new or little known talent to voice animated characters. I think SquareEnix is trying the same thing any production company would do for a role - find a big name with a popular fan following to draw consumers to watch/buy/play the movie/series/game.
Admit it, Samuel L Jackson has dabbled in anime - I bet if he ever told his agent he wanted to voice for a game there'd be takers.

2) A few people commented about forever ignoring sequels and prequels and only hold FF7 the original game as the only true canon. That's their opinion and choice to do so. I'm cool with that, I respect their outlook.

I couldn't do that, though. Sure, right now I'm digesting SQEX's new skewed view of the past, but I will still acknowledge that it was created by the original company/creators/whatever as an official source of information.

I'm a fanfic writer and imagineer - I'm used to taking plot and ripping it to shreds, taping pieces back together in another order while leaving some scraps on the floor, then stapling my own version onto that. I take and leave canon as I please, staying true to the facts or wandering all the way into AU. It's not any stretch of my imagination to say this never happened, but this piece of the thing I'm ignoring is very intriguing and still could figure in to my plot.

Then there's always the loophole that anything we know of the past from FF7 came from Cloud's POV, and Cloud's memory is sketchy.

*********

And now for some thoughts on DC/CC in general. When I first heard about the character of Genesis, it was only through the files you find in DoC and vague internet talk of him being a "super-soldier" or "the first Sephiroth". This intrigued me, and it made sense. ignore RAWR anger there is only one Sephiroth Shinra wanted to create a Super-Soldier or lots of them, so why wouldn't there have been other experiments before/besides Sephiroth? I highly doubt it was all - "EUREKA! Here is the Sephiroth! What beginners luck, 1st try and all." Just like Vincent, Cloud, Zack, Red 13, the Sephiroth clones, and Deep Ground, there were others besides, before, and after Sephiroth. Someone had to be General before him, too. There were probably other Soldiers who were used to try to reach this status, and they were the ones that taught Sephiroth. So all the mysterious background history with Angeal and Genesis being "those before" or mentors to Zack and Seph sits fine with me.

I have not yet seen any actual game footage in DoC of Genesis because I haven't completed that. I've seen a few pictures I started to run the mission, but that very first one, find the exit in 2 minutes or something. It's a maze canyon and Deep Ground Soldiers are shooting at you. I failed. I should try to complete that one of these days. I have no real opinion of Genesis DoC wise.

Hearing about Genesis in CC, though? Some of it sucks. How it will really play out in game and what I take away from the experience is different from hearing of it though. I'll have to see when I read transcripts after playing the Japanese version or crack open a copy in March 2008.

SQEX and screwing the timeline? Isn't that only the obvious follow-up to the Soap Opera of DoC? **gaspshock** The villain is really who? With the way Nero looked I expected him to be Vincent's evil twin that he never knew he had.

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Comments

( 17 comments — Leave a comment )
countesscain
Nov. 19th, 2007 10:18 pm (UTC)
I don't like Gackt. I wish someone would throw acid on his face so people would see how many real "fans" of his "voice" there are. (And if you're a real fan of his voice, then good for you! I just think the majority of his fanbase is there for his looks alone.)

Which is my main point. Genesis=Gackt, because he's "hawt". I wouldn't have minded if he was Genesis' voice actor, and that's all. But to actually base a whole character off of him? Pure whoring.

And I agree with aphelion_orion when it comes to the storyline. Genesis and Angeal ruined Sephiroth's struggle, pretty much. General before him? That's cool, and likely. But there was no evidence in the original game that there were any "Super SOLDIERs" before him. They just wanted more cool characters with wings.

(Sorry about spamming your e-mail, I'm having issues typing tonight! Ugh~)
ember_and_ash
Nov. 20th, 2007 01:21 pm (UTC)
Acid in the face? Ouch. But isn't his "pretty boy" status a part of the whole Visual K, Visual Key, whatever genre of rock bands that Japan has?

Heh, I've seen one Malice Mizer video, an interview/variety show segment with Gackt as a guest, a couple of pictures, and now heard the songs from the Dirge of Cerberus game. I can admit that I wouldn't mind sampling more music, but first on the list is Buck-Tick CDs that I'd like to import.

Wow, I'll have to look into current pics of Gackt, then. Or look at the DoC Gackt single. I mostly remember him on that variety talk show, and he seemed not so visually styled. His hair was brown and he was wearing a GQ magazine cover like suit.

BOO, SE, for raining on Sephiroth's parade. They want more wings? Is that why Seph got extra wings in strange places in KH2?

It's okay about the mail : )
countesscain
Nov. 20th, 2007 06:40 pm (UTC)
Visual kei, yeah. I don't think Gackt is really considered to be visual kei anymore, though, since he left Malice Mizer. *Shrug.* But I'm not an expert. I'm glad you like his voice also, though.

And Buck-Tick is awesome~ I love Atsushi Sakurai. But I wouldn't want him to have a character based off of him in a Final Fantasy game.

As for KHII Seph, I think I'm blind, because I didn't notice that. Oops.
ember_and_ash
Nov. 21st, 2007 04:38 pm (UTC)
So Visual Kei is a band thing only? (If you can answer, since you say you're not an expert...) Yeah, I wouldn't mind hearing more from him or malice mizer. Do you know of a website (retail preferable) where you can hear clips of japanese cds? Even if it's a Japanese site, I'll try to muddle my way through it. I think a retail site would have more variety of singers and groups. Kind of like how Best Buy has samples from every song of a cd. There cds without and sometimes only a partial list, but the majority of stuff I've looked up has clips. It'd be awesome to preview jrock or jpop or j-whatever before I'd pay for importing it.

I've only heard 5 songs from this group, but I want more. I really like the singer's voice when he croons a song (sorry, I don't really know anybody of the group, but there are a lot of American ones I don't know either). I first heard their opening song for the anime NightWalker, and then the opening for Trinity Blood.

They've also been referred to as asswings. Perhaps they're there as a reference to Safer-Sephiroth and how the lower half of him was all wings.

I thought it was funny how Sora asks Sephiroth something along the lines of "Who are you?" but I guess that's because he was an optional boss, so Sora might not have met him. The worst was Ursala, cuz didn't everybody fight her in KH, so her appearance and Ariel not knowing who she was confusing. Yeah, it follows the movie plot that way, but even if Ariel was an "optional" character for Atlantica battle and "wouldn't know" Ursala was the Boss Battle there, shouldn't the SDG group be squawking "omg we defeated her a year ago, why is she back?" I think I'll have to look at some gamescripts now...
vasher
Nov. 20th, 2007 01:47 am (UTC)
Via myprettypuppet:

My issue with Gackt isn't that he's Gackt, but with the Genesis character in general- he comes off as an emo-er, more romantic Sephiroth (perish the thought) that seemed to be firmly wedged into the storyline because Nomura is a Gackt fanboy. No mention is made of these other mega suped up SOLDIERS in either AC or the original game. If there were already hints in the game that there was a history of this sort of succeeded experimentation (or really anything at all), then fine, but this is just not good storytelling.

It actually goes against Seph's stated reasons for going apeshit, because there were, in fact, others like him out there. One of his defining characteristics is that he's so different from everybody else, and can't relate to anybody else- Genesis and Angeal dilute that out so damn much.

Sure, there's always that loophole of Cloud's leaky memory, but you could also stretch that to the whole series being 'nothing more than a dream'- there is no spoon type mindjob. Eh, copout.

The whole compilation comes across as a scheme quickly thought up and slapped together, not originally planned sequels and prequels.

Mostly? There's only ONE One-winged Angel, dmmt.

...oh dear. *wipes up*

Cheers!
ember_and_ash
Nov. 20th, 2007 01:34 pm (UTC)
Speaking of no spoon, if you played it, what did you think of Dirge's "main villain?" (Trying to keep no spoilers...) What Matrix sci-fi reasoning is it that I had to listen to "the villain" more and not Weiss? I just recently started to compare him to Agent Smith, but nowhere near cool.

Yes! Only 1 Sephiroth.
apart from 15 clones, remnants, Cloud, but they all obviously come with a "Property of Sephiroth" stamp on them.
powercorrupts
Nov. 20th, 2007 02:05 am (UTC)
Really, I really dislike Genesis as a character for a variety of reasons, and I'll confess I'm abysmal at really expressing them.

The popstar thing is a large portion of it. For me, the issue is that videogames aren't movies - this isn't like David Bowie being the Goblin King, or Sting playing Feyd Rautha - this is Gackt being Genesis. He's not just a rock singer acting, because if he was just the voice actor, then the character model wouldn't look like him. And that to me makes a world of difference. I find it profoundly creepy that the character render looks like him to be honest.

I'm sure it's just a bias of some sort, but to me, it feels like he's been inserted into the canon. It feels like they took a singer and put him into a videogame, and I can't figure out any reason why except that Nomura is a giant fanboy. And that irritates me a little. It's the complete unapologetic attitude that is the problem, perhaps - if maybe he looked just a little like Gackt, I wouldn't think it was an issue. But because he looks like Gackt, and he's voiced by Gackt, I'm led to the conclusion that clearly, he is supposed to be Gackt. At least a little. And that just weirds me out.

Nomura's Gackt fanboy thing does bother me. And here's where my bias really shows - I can't help but think that Nomura put Genesis in to supplant Sephiroth. Nomura is hardly a Sephiroth fan - that's cool, really. I mean, you don't have to like a character to use them well. But G just feels like he's supposed to be the omni-Sephiroth. More pretty than Sephiroth, more pitiable than Sephiroth, more original than Sephiroth, more knowing, more long-lasting... it looks to me like Nomura is trying to create some ideal character.

I know the term canon-sue gets thrown around way too casually most of the time, but I can't help but think that a character who looks like a popular singer, seems more perfect than canon characters, takes over the positions previously occupied by canon characters, and has a downright silly flowery name... is just about the point where I'd start considering calling them a canon sue. In terms of the way that Genesis has been so roughly shoved into the FFVII plot, it begins to remind me of haphazard fanfics.

After all, it's not enough for Genesis to know all the important characters, or to be a Very Significant Character (that we never heard about in the original? Possible, if straining credulity a little), but he has to now be written into very important scenes of the original? Made to say and do things that have great bearing upon the plot of the original? That, to me, is outlandish. It seems as though the writers of the Compilation games are too intent on Lucas-ing FFVII, and aren't paying nearly as much attention as they should be to the sheer credulity of the matter.

My problems with Genesis have little to do with any one of those factors, but everything to do with all of them. I don't dislike Angeal, I don't dislike any of the Dirge villains. It's really the sum of all the things that makes me dislike Genesis as a character.

And as for why there should have been a super-soldier before Sephiroth, I'm pretty sure that's stated in the original canon. I tried to find some sort of transcription, because I really do recall it (and I don't think I'm going nuts, but it's been known to happen), but the best I could find were just paraphrases on some fansites. Basically, there was something said about how the attempts to infuse Jenova cells in people only led to conditions like Geostigma - they killed the host humans. That was why they were crazy enough to try putting Jenova cells in Lucrecia - nothing else was working. There weren't any other functioning prototypes. Sephiroth was the first, and the basis for the SOLDIER program. (That's in the UO, if you want reference on it) Simultaneously, [Sephiroth] was the first to have the role of a SOLDIER (-->P.217). However, mass production of SOLDIERs ... as this simplification of the process used on Sephiroth...
powercorrupts
Nov. 20th, 2007 02:06 am (UTC)
In rereading my comment, I wanted to apologize for the teal deer. =x I really should proofread so that it doesn't end up like that.
ember_and_ash
Nov. 20th, 2007 03:12 pm (UTC)
response part 1
Teal deer? Is that like a pink elephant? I didn't notice it, did you edit it away?

Mmm-hmmm, okay, I see some of your points. I guess beyond the selling point of having a singer act, I find I'm okay with Gackt as a character (looks). Because I can see it as - he's not Gackt (from Earth), he's Genesis (from Gaia, that is the name of The Planet, right?). I know it's a game and the characters are fictional and now there's an actual person in it. Like your mention of David Bowie and Sting (love Labyrinth), or really of any actor or voice actor that takes a role, I just accept the actor/face/visual/voice as belonging to that individual character. So SQE hired Gackt to be a character. Okay *shrugs shoulders*.

What I've been reading about the portrayal and characterization of G is bad. He does sound like a Mary Sue, Gary Sue, and I really like your canon sue term. (Non-gendered, no name specific, and usable all around.) Him and Angeal both, really. Which is kind of a shame - the build up of Sephiroth's breakdown on him being alone and now here's Genesis, but Zack's past and personal associations I thought were relatively plot point free. So we find out Zack has a mentor, nothing like G that conflicts with canon. But now this mentor like character is like Genesis and Sephiroth, too. bad bad bad
Oh well, I still have some hopes that I can enjoy the game and the new characters and not be jarred by the canon screw-ups.

Nope, no way, no how, I don't think G will replace Seph. Not gonna happen.
Haha, Lucas-ing 7 lol. Yeah, G's red coat reminds me of Seph's black. If they were really gonna Lucas it though and complete the circle, there should be some scene that shows G likes to dress up as a blond woman (for plot reasons), and later gives Bro the bodybuilder the wig For Some Reason. Or some other coincidental type things which might yet be discovered.
ember_and_ash
Nov. 20th, 2007 03:12 pm (UTC)
response part 2

Did you try gamefaqs.com? I think there's a transcript there.
Alright, so the games and books state Sephiroth is the first SOLDIER, and to use Hojo like classifications - J-1. I was also thinking of what other types of possible methods might have been used to create a Super Army (since it can't be SOLDIER, then) before Jenova was discovered. Mako injections, the once humans in the pods of the reactor (if they were necessarily Jenova injected or some other type experiment), or like Vincent before more things were explained about Chaos in DC (like what's with his other 3 personalities that he lives with?) What other ways were tried and done before they used Jenova and found success in Sephiroth? So Jenova cells killed the first injected, but what about past experiments that maybe just weren't the success that Shinra was looking for, but survived the process? This is what I thought of when I first heard of G and that he was an enhanced human before Sephiroth. Like this fictional background I'm gonna create on the fly here - perhaps like Vincent, something had been done to G to render a longer life span so he could have been around before Sephiroth. Not Jenova, but something else. And perhaps by Shinra standards, the end result of his procedure wasn't what they were looking for. G was still given a bill of clean health, though, under the thumb and command of Shinra. So he and/or other experiments that were beyond human but not the perfection Sephiroth seemed to yield, were allowed to be his teachers/sparring partners when he was young because they could match him in abilities more than a normal human. Deep Ground Soldiers seemed to support the *other results* used to create super humans. The DG that were kinda dog like? Shelke's youth? Okay, she was after Sephiroth, but mostly the procedure that got her results. Nero with prosthetic wings and shadow magic? Perhaps Azul used to be Cloud's height and size? These are just wonderings before more "official" word and timelines come out or if they're out and I don't know them. How long has Shinra been in power? How long have they wanted super humans? How long was Deep Ground just a cover story of a "hospital" for sick soldiers and the place experiments were performed and kept? I always did imagine Hojo to be a busy guy. Even though he was supposed to be helping the company find Sephiroth so they could reach the Promised Land, he also had Red XIII and wanted to breed Aeris.

Except G and Angeal have wings, and if this is a known factor by Sephiroth, surely this would = not really human, and when he starts to question his humanity he would remember G and Angeal aren't normal. So yes, it all gives the one fingered salute to canon.
braided_yazoo
Nov. 20th, 2007 06:06 am (UTC)
Speaking from the shallow pov of someone who only watched the movie
Plot? Who cares about the plot? It's got pretty pictures of Sephiroth 8D
ember_and_ash
Nov. 20th, 2007 01:38 pm (UTC)
Re: Speaking from the shallow pov of someone who only watched the movie
Hiya! I don't think it a shallow pov at all. You're a fan, no matter the starting point.

Yeah, we all like shinies! I'll probably do this with CC, drool over the pretty eye candy of Zack, Seph, and Cloud.
braided_yazoo
Nov. 21st, 2007 02:43 am (UTC)
Re: Speaking from the shallow pov of someone who only watched the movie
I was just worried that some hardcore fans might take it as offensive >_>

Mm yeah! Why bother about Mary Sues when there's pretty people to ogle at xD
ember_and_ash
Nov. 21st, 2007 05:36 pm (UTC)
Re: Speaking from the shallow pov of someone who only watched the movie
Yeah, that attitude does exist, for any type of fandom - be it game, movie, music, or sports. I don't care whatever way - I've been a fan of different things from the beginning, the middle, and after things get popular. The one thing I would encourage you to do though is if you have a ps1/ps2 and the money, try to find a copy of the game and play it.
Which may be hard, judging from prices on eBay. I wish you luck on finding the cheapest way to get hold of a decent copy if you decide to play.

Yeah, I like the shiny, gimme lots of Seph and Cloud!

BTW, as someone who's only seen the movie, did you know anything of the game at all (like read the gamescript, knew the plot), or did you just watch the movie without really knowing anything of FF7? I just wondered, cuz I think it'd be fun to read the perspective of a person who had no previous knowledge - like how many wtf? type comments would be made.
braided_yazoo
Nov. 23rd, 2007 10:46 am (UTC)
Re: Speaking from the shallow pov of someone who only watched the movie
Yeah I'm saving up to get the computer version. Cheaper. Lack of money is also why I have no PS to play with in the first place >_> I've made it one of my life's ambitions to play as many of the games as possible...if possible.

Err it was my friend who first lent me the movie. His copy had bad subtitles, and lousy quality. But the CG, the fight scenes, and Sephiroth made me really curious. So I saved up, got the limited edition DVD (which cost me half a year's savings T_T should've stuck with the ordinary one, I know), and watched it properly. Some things didn't make sense, even with proper subtitles. Things like Shinra, Jenova, the whole last Cetra thing. So I went online and researched. Got hooked, and am now saving to get the game (:
ember_and_ash
Nov. 23rd, 2007 03:05 pm (UTC)
Re: Speaking from the shallow pov of someone who only watched the movie
*Wishes more luck on the search* That's cool that you're looking at the computer games, because I've heard computer version of FFVIII has an added feature that *outside of Japan* versions of the PS1/PS2 needs importing. Through the hook-up of a device (can't remember what it is at the moment) you get to play this small pixelated adventure featuring a chocobo, a moomba, and a mog? I think those are the characters. Moombas come from FF8. I think I've read that the computer version came with this little minigame. Maybe gamefaqs.com has a write up on it. I wanted to get the device if it worked with my ps2, or buy the computer version. Except looking on ebay I don't know if some computer versions could be bootleg copies. **wary**

WOW, that's some instant dedication to buy the LE. My take on LEs: The price is always a factor, but I like LEs for all the extra bonus stuff. Later, when there is free money to be had again, I can always get the regular edition later (and save the LE). An LE I might never be able to find again, or if I find it - it would be by auction at a higher price than originally sold for.

I don't think I ever watched a fansub version of AC. I might have read a translation transcript somewhere before the US version was released. At first I thought it was cool that The Forgotten City had a name now - Ajit. But then it was corrected that ajit (or whatever the Japanese word is) meant "base". Heh-heh.

While hopefully the US AC translations match better than the game's translations, sometimes fansubs might have better translations. I went to a convention and saw Final Fantasy: Unlimited as a fansub and tried to get some fansub copies off the internet. Then I supported it officially by importing some Japanese dvds and buying the US when they came out. But a few things I think were better in the fansub.
Like this one line - this kid "names" a mysterious stranger who can't remember his own name. While the guy is fighting, the kid says "Kaze tto" (think that's the romanji). The fansub translates that as - "He's like the wind" which then everybody calls him Kaze/wind. In the official US English dub/translation, the kid says "He is Kaze" which makes no sense to me, even if I know where he really gets his name, and I don't see where somebody who didn't see fansubs or knows a bit of Japanese would get where that line is coming from at all - except the guy is called Kaze. Might have been better calling him Wind in the English version.
braided_yazoo
Nov. 24th, 2007 12:10 pm (UTC)
Re: Speaking from the shallow pov of someone who only watched the movie
Hm, I never heard about that, so I'll go check it out. Thanks for the heads-up :D

Yeah, this time, the DVD came with postcards, the script, and side stories, so I think it was pretty worth it. Yeah I agree with the whole "buy now or fork out more for Ebay" idea, which also means you can sell it later for cash if you're broke. Not like I'll ever be able to part with it, but just in case >_>

It wasn't fansub, I think. Pirated, from Thailand. Which would explain a lot. Like Cloud saying he wasn't for sale in his talk with Rufus ._. I think they meant he wasn't a mercenary anymore xD

Haha maybe they meant for Kaze to be his name? XD "He is Kaze" sounds really weird though. Sometimes I see mistakes in official English translations that make me go acepalm. Editors shouldn't be very expensive! Or even hire some students, I'm sure they'll do a better job T_T I wouldn't mind doing it for free XD
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